Desperate help with chicken trouble shooting!

[Jody]

Hi Mark and all,

I am new to this forum and have spent some time reading through the posts and other sites and I wanted to share my experience with you in hope anyone has thoughts/insights to help me problem solve as I just can't seem to get to the bottom of what is going on for my girls.

I am new to raising backyard chickens. 7 months ago I got my first 4 Isa Browns. Unsure of the age, but at least 1 yr old. The tip 1/4 of their beaks were trimmed. When I first got them (7mo ago), I gave them Killverm in their water to treat for worms and bought a completely brand new coop. They layed from the day we got them, one egg per day throughout winter - even when it snowed (in the New England region of NSW).

Four months later I noticed 2/4 had messy bottoms, but behaviourally no change - they were as plucky as usual, and showed a healthy appetite. They are the smallest 2, so maybe a little underweight if anything. At this time I treated all 4 with Killverm in water, as well as 4-5 drops of Ivermectin pour-on on the back of their necks at the advice of a vet. Messy bottoms did not clear up. They were also given antibiotic injections same time in case of other cause.

2 months ago, the top hen (a different one to the above two) stopped laying, and became unwell - off food, falling asleep standing up during the day, slept in the nesting box not the roost over night, very squishy crop, completely watery clear poop.. so I took her to the vet and gave her 5 days of Baytril antibiotic orally. She perked up considerably and every now and again went into the nesting box of a morning as if she was going to lay but didn't. I suspected a reproductive issue (? egg bound/peritonitis). She may have been the one to lay soft/shell-less eggs occasionally, but it has been hard to pin it on her specifically. One instance, however, I found broken shell hanging form her bottom so I donned a pair of latex gloves and checked for eggshell but couldn't find any, and the vet did the same and had the same conclusion.

At this time I also cleared and chemically sprayed the coop for lice/mites and I have never been able to see any evidence of lice and mites on the chickens or in the coop. I gave the girls 1 week of apple cider vinegar in their water with fresh garlic gloves, and occasional treats of natural yoghurt with mash or wholemeal oats, otherwise layer pellets/mash.

Over the next 5 weeks top hen declined again and 2 weeks ago she began walking around with her wings out as if she was hot and had a temperature. She was also more lethargic and back to sleeping standing up, looking rather hunched/fluffed. She worsened over 2 weeks to the point where she was panting for air, sitting in the nesting box,unable to move, eat or drink, mostly with her eyes closed. She survived the night but was really not well. We thought she may be egg bound/impacted so we gave her a warm water bath but it didn't help. The next day we took her to the vet and after lengthy discussion (and no charge for the consultation-legend), we thought it may relate to repro issue, and that another longer course of antibiotics may just be a band-aid solution so we had her put down as we didn't want her to be in any more pain. Still not sure if that was the right decision, but she seemed to get sick, get a little better, get sick again...

For the past 2 months, the fourth chicken had been pecking her neck feathers out. This continues and for the past 10 days she has also had red skin on the back of her legs and between her toes (stable, not obviously worsening). I have uploaded pictures of both. I have had real difficulty trying to find out what might be the cause of either of these issues from reading various forums. She is definitely over pruning herself, not pecking from others.

For the past 1-2 months egg production has dropped to 1-2 eggs per day.

10 days ago I gave all 3 remaining girls 4-5 drops ivermectin on the back of their necks. I wondered if they had a very mild case of scaly leg mites, and so the vet suggested 1 drop on each foot also, so I did this 5 days ago. I cleaned their poop under the roost and then went away. I just got back and have found what might be large round worm (picture below). Some was dried up, some was still moist in the droppings of at least one maybe more chickens. I generally take a look at their droppings (at least once a week when I clean their roost droppings), but I have never seen this before.

Then I also noticed these other parasites that looked like something else. These were still moving around and clearly alive:

With this long-winded background, I have several questions I would greatly appreciate your thoughts on:
1) Could the worms be the cause of the messy butts?
2) Could the worms contribute to reduced egg production?
3) Is it likely, given I was away for 5 days (during a heatwave) that the small alive larvae looking things in the droppings could have been from flies rather than come from inside the chickens?
4) How is the best way to treat the worms? Would 1ml ivermectin drops into mouth, or legs be more effective than on back of neck? Should this be repeated in 7, 10, or 14 days? Or not for 3 months? I have read all of these things - I want to blast these worms but not kill the chickens.
5) For the chicken with red skin in between her toes and backs of legs, what could this be due to? How to treat?
6) Also for the same chicken who is pecking her own neck feathers - what could be the cause, and how to treat?

If you have stayed with me - thank you very much! I've been quite perplexed about my girls as I just haven't felt like they are 100% and I welcome your thoughts!

 

[Mark]

Hi Jody and firstly welcome to SSC!

Secondly, you're a great writer and I was totally consumed with your story it was very easy to follow.

I can't think of anything I would have done different to you - you've done all the right things IMHO to diagnose and treat your hens. Sometimes we try everything we can to save our animals and in the end we can only do our best. If I can digress, my sister got a puppy Alsatian about a month ago within a few weeks he started looking and acting unwell - the vets couldn't diagnose a specific condition but gave the dog antibiotics. Unfortunately, the puppy died yesterday and there was nothing anyone could do but let him go peacefully.

My point is, whilst many ailments in chickens are common and easy to diagnose there are many others that are not so sometimes we just have to do our best but not beat ourselves up if we can't save them.

1) Could the worms be the cause of the messy butts?

Yes it's possible. It could also be something else making their poops runny like an illness or something contaminating their environment or something they are eating.

2) Could the worms contribute to reduced egg production?

Yes - any stress caused by parasites, illness, predators, environmental conditions, can cause a reduction in laying.

3) Is it likely, given I was away for 5 days (during a heatwave) that the small alive larvae looking things in the droppings could have been from flies rather than come from inside the chickens?

Yes, it looks like fly larvae (although I'm no expert it does look like that to me).

4) How is the best way to treat the worms? Would 1ml ivermectin drops into mouth, or legs be more effective than on back of neck? Should this be repeated in 7, 10, or 14 days? Or not for 3 months? I have read all of these things - I want to blast these worms but not kill the chickens.

I would use the ivermectin you have as directed so if it's meant to be used on the skin (which is the stuff I use also) then probably don't experiment with it orally unless the vet recommends it. Remember, ivermectin has never technically been approved for use on chickens but all of us chicken lovers know that certain types of ivermectin not only works well on hens but it's very safe also. Lately, there has been some conjecture whether ivermectin is effective against intestinal worms in poultry - I think it does work to a degree and for several years this is all I used on my hens & quail but to be on the safe side I now use other oral meds in conjunction with ivermectin.

That is, I use ivermectin for mites and lice (mainly mites - cause they're the real baddies - most hens have a few lice and that's nothing to worry about unless they get out of control) and I use Kilverm generally for all my flock (ducks included) but also Avitrol Plus for my laying hens.

The reason I use Avitrol Plus is because it has a bigger scope of worms than Kilverm (which is primarily roundworm - the most common) but Avitrol also kills tapeworms, Gizzard worm, and Gape worm among others and although not common in backyard chickens these worms can create the signs and symptoms your hens are showing. Things like gasping for air, crooking their necks unusually, falling asleep on their feet, etc.

Avitrol Plus is a tablet and usually 1.5 - 2 is enough for a standard hen. It's easy to administer at night simply hold the hen under one arm and with that same hand open the beak then gently with your other hand place the tablet on the hens back of the tongue - it's done in seconds and will protect for 3 months.

Importantly, Avitrol Plus has a withholding period of 5 days which means the eggs must not be consumed in that period so you have to collect them and throw them out. Personally, I think that's a small price to pay for healthy birds.

5) For the chicken with red skin in between her toes and backs of legs, what could this be due to? How to treat?

It could be irritation due to mite bites. Mites don't usually say on the hens they come out at night from the cracks in the roosts to suck the blood of the hens and the feet is the first place they'll bite. Perhaps give your hens another dose of ivermectin - I would - and also spray the whole coop again.

6) Also for the same chicken who is pecking her own neck feathers - what could be the cause, and how to treat?

This could be mites too, but it could also just become a bad habit originating from trying to get a mite - I've seen this before - most of the time they stop doing it on their own. If she's still doing it in a few weeks or it gets too bad then try isolating her for a week in her own small pen. Sometimes a change of routine can alter behavior and make her focus on other things - like how to get out and back with her flock. This has worked for me in the past.

Other things to check:

Try a different brand of feed;
Look around and make sure the hens aren't eating something they shouldn't such as wild weed berries - generally hens are pretty good at selecting their food though...; and
Don't give them treats for a few weeks and see if their stools improve.

That's all I can think of for now, please don't hesitate to ask more questions but at the end of the day you've done everything correct to ensure your birds are getting the best care so keep monitoring them, trying things, and I'm sure you'll sort the issue out.

 

[Jody]

Hi Mark,

Thanks so much for your speedy reply. I've had a long time to think about the issues so I am glad I was able to communicate it clearly. I've actually been fairly worried about them for some time but still don't feel like I've gotten to the bottom of the issue(s).

I'd like to clarify a few more questions if you have the time:

1) Do you think it's fine to use simultaneously the Kilverm+Avitrol (syrup because I think using a syringe would work better for me than tablets, unless you think there's an additional value to using tablets)?

2) Should I do Ivermectin (drops on back of neck plus one on each foot) at the same time as treating for worms (Kilverm+Avitrol), or can they be at slightly different intervals (which is how it will probably turn out)?

3) With the Ivermictin, when would you re-do it? Do you have a general rule (e.g., 7 days, 10 days, 14 days..). Last drops on neck were 11 days ago. Feet 7.

4) And would you re-do the wormers (Kilverm+Avitrol) also, and at what interval?

5) Regarding the pecking - yes I have suspected she started and then formed a habit and that now that is probably the main issue. As for her pink legs, if it's mites, it's weird she is the only one having the reaction and not the others.

6) Your comment about changing the feed - I had them on laying pellets for several months, then a grain feed mix and now a mash (past 4 weeks). I just think they like the mash better because of their slightly cut beaks. But do you think perhaps just buy a different brand of layer mash?

7) The wormy picture - I have actually never seen that many worms before. Is that dead worms coming out because of the ivermectin? Or was that just coincidental? I'm not familiar with what to expect in that regard.

8) Finally, where would you purchase the Avitrol from? Is it found in general Pet stores, or only online? I have found it on NSW Hen Rescue, and will order it from there but I just don't want to wait that long for it to arrive unless I have to..

If you have the time, I'd love your feedback

Jody

 

[Mark]

I'd like to clarify a few more questions if you have the time:

No worries Jody, this is the main reason I created the forum - to answer questions and if I can't then hopefully someone else can.

1) Do you think it's fine to use simultaneously the Kilverm+Avitrol (syrup because I think using a syringe would work better for me than tablets, unless you think there's an additional value to using tablets)?

I'd just use the Avitrol and hold off on the Kilverm for the time being or perhaps use the Kilverm mid-term at about 6 weeks. Kilverm doesn't have a withholding period on eggs so it's pretty user friendly.

I imagine the Avitrol syrup has the same standards as the tablets but just confirm the dosage intervals on the packet.

2) Should I do Ivermectin (drops on back of neck plus one on each foot) at the same time as treating for worms (Kilverm+Avitrol), or can they be at slightly different intervals (which is how it will probably turn out)?

Yeah sure, the worming and mite treatments don't have to be done at the same time.

Yes, give the drop on the back of the neck and maybe paint a small amount on the feet and legs also.

3) With the Ivermictin, when would you re-do it? Do you have a general rule (e.g., 7 days, 10 days, 14 days..). Last drops on neck were 11 days ago. Feet 7.

I usually do mine every 3 months but sometimes if I see absolutely no signs of external parasites I may skip a term.

In your case, to really knock the mites out (if that's what it is) it might be prudent to give them another dose soon but you should also be careful not to overuse it. When did you start giving them ivermectin ie how many treatments have they had in the past few months?

4) And would you re-do the wormers (Kilverm+Avitrol) also, and at what interval?

Go by the directions on the packet and as I wrote above perhaps alternate the Kilverm mid-term of the Avitrol.

In all honesty, once you get the parasites under control there's really nothing to worry about and you'll find very little goes wrong with backyard hens. You've had a bit of a rough run but after this you should only have to treat your hens once every 3 or 4 months and maybe only every 6 months if the parasite cycle is broken and depending on your property. Normally, backyard chicken keeping is mostly trouble free.

5) Regarding the pecking - yes I have suspected she started and then formed a habit and that now that is probably the main issue. As for her pink legs, if it's mites, it's weird she is the only one having the reaction and not the others.

Well, it could be possible she's roosting in a particular area or maybe more sensitive to bites. Having said that, there could be some other environmental factor causing the rash or something else... Maybe see how the treatment goes for a few weeks yet.

6) Your comment about changing the feed - I had them on laying pellets for several months, then a grain feed mix and now a mash (past 4 weeks). I just think they like the mash better because of their slightly cut beaks. But do you think perhaps just buy a different brand of layer mash?

Yes possibly, although most layer mashes should be good. My hens prefer mash over pellets that's for sure! Has the bad poops been the same on all the feeds?

7) The wormy picture - I have actually never seen that many worms before. Is that dead worms coming out because of the ivermectin? Or was that just coincidental? I'm not familiar with what to expect in that regard.

Yes, dead worms will come out in their manure. Of course, worm eggs and live worms will come out also and that's why breaking the cycle of infestation is important and this is done by following the directions on the product labels, keeping the dosage intervals regular (initially anyway) until the nasties are all gone.

8) Finally, where would you purchase the Avitrol from? Is it found in general Pet stores, or only online? I have found it on NSW Hen Rescue, and will order it from there but I just don't want to wait that long for it to arrive unless I have to..

I've seen it in general pet stores and feed supplies stores - the tablets are the most common but hopefully you'll find the syrup, if not, you might have to get it online https://www.vetproductsdirect.com.au/itemdesc.asp?ic=702

Don't worry too much... usually backyard chicken keeping is totally stress free and fun

 

[Jody]

Hi Mark,

Thanks so much for your response! I was only able to quickly locate levamisole poultry wormer which I put in their water today, although between the three of them they can't have consumed more than ~200-300 ml throughout the day (8ml per 100ml). I have ordered avitrol plus tablets so when they arrive I will give this to them in 10-14 days. Longer term I plan to alternate between kilverm and avitrol tabs perhaps every 2-3 months.

I will also give the coop a good scrub and spray this weekend for mites.

Since I've been feeding mostly layer mash and less treats their dropping have looked pretty solid and good (apart from the small amount of roundworm, obviously, but that is not as much now either).

The pink legs look no worse... I will continue to monitor but she's not currently laying and is definitely not 100%.

You asked how many times I've given Ivermectin - 4 drops back of neck August 2015 and again 2 weeks ago. Also one drop on each leg once per week for last 2 weeks (for possible mild scaly leg mites). Ideally I'd only like to do drops every 3 months moving forward.

I was wondering where you purchase Ivermectin pour-on from? Can you order it online for a reasonable price?

 

[Mark]

You asked how many times I've given Ivermectin - 4 drops back of neck August 2015 and again 2 weeks ago. Also one drop on each leg once per week for last 2 weeks (for possible mild scaly leg mites). Ideally I'd only like to do drops every 3 months moving forward.

Ok, that's probably enough for now then and yes I agree with you on starting your 3 month cycle.

I was wondering where you purchase Ivermectin pour-on from? Can you order it online for a reasonable price?

I get my ivermectin online from City Chicks here (you will need to enter your postcode) and their product has always worked well on my poultry. You could get it cheaper buying it in bulk but you need to buy the correct type as there are different kinds for different animals and over stocking is probably not worth it anyway. If you haven't read my article on Mite & Lice treatment I encourage you to read the ivermectin chapter because it explains the use and make-up of ivermectin in detail plus it goes into the history of why it's so hard to buy it off the shelf. Also, there's a few paras on City Chicks about their product you might find interesting...

For a small flock the 100 mil bottle of ivermectin for $20-25 is pretty good value really!

Let me know how you go...

 

[Jody]

Hi Mark,

I took a read of your Ivermectin page (excellent read, thanks!) and made a purchase from City Chicks.

Fingers crossed these girls get back to 100%

Thanks for all your help!

 

[Mark]

No worries Jody - I'm positive your hens will be fine.

Don't hesitate to post more threads and ask questions on anything here

 

[Jody]

Hi Mark,

The story continues....

This morning I found what I think might be a lash egg (salpingitis) and I think it may have come from the one with the pink feet and who is plucking her feathers. It was tiny, about 2-3cms x 1.5 cms. See below:

Have you ever seen this before? Is it her oviduct? I wonder if it may account for her stopping laying eggs? Do you know what has caused it? And what should I do to treat if anything? Some blogs I have read say I should "depopulate" the whole flock....surely that is excessive (and awful).

Any thoughts/advice would be great!

Jody

 

[Mark]

Yes I have heard of lash egg (salpingitis) before but never seen it in my flock.

As to the cause, I have no idea except to assume she was infected by bacteria like humans can be via infection, low immune, injury, bad luck, genetic disorder, etc etc... You can provide 5 star service and accommodation for your hens and still some will get sick - that's chicken keeping for ya

I do think euthanasia is a bit steep particularly of the whole flock especially since it's likely bacterial based and probably not viral. That is, my line of thinking would be the likelihood of it spreading to other birds is pretty low (but I'm not a vet) anyway I would monitor the hen and if she gets worse (or shows obvious distress and suffering) then maybe consider taking her to the vet and then decide if she should be put down.

I've had several sick hens in the past and many recover but some reach a point where euthanising them is best. However, most of the time our hens go quietly without any intervention. For example, we leave our layers go into retirement so when they stop laying they just free-load for a few years until we find them dead in a nesting box - nice and peacefully.

Whenever, I find an ill hen showing obvious signs of sickness I isolate her in one of two isolation pens we have ready to go - most of the time they're empty - but it's good to have at least one area where a sick hen can be placed until she gets better or not. Here's a small article I wrote about isolation pens.

Everyone's different... personally, I isolate my sick hens and leave nature take its course unless I see the bird in distress and then I euthanise it but I can't/shouldn't tell you what to do because that's up to you to decide and you shouldn't be pushed down one path or another by anyone.

Hopefully your hen will make it through Jody, but if she doesn't it won't be because you did something wrong. With all the info you have given so far in this thread you've done everything correctly.