How do i find a good place to be self sufficient?

[DAN]

I have a dream of living in the countryside somewhere with good clima where I can live self sufficient, but i dont know in which country I have to search.


I am looking for:
- Good clima
- Good earth
- Clean water (river, lake or underground water
- Animals
- Wood for building a house
- beautiful landscape
- limited rules and goverment (I want to live off the grid without have to worry about rules about building you own house or rules about having animals or having to pay taxes and so on..)
- cheap price for land
- etc.

Any ideas of a perfect place for me to search this (or at least some off the things)?

 

[Mark]

Dan, that's a terrific question and no doubt a can of worms has just been opened for those of us who strive for a self-sufficient lifestyle.

Like many choices and decisions people make in life the type of self-sufficient lifestyle a person desires can be discussed in a general way and also in a very personal way. I can give you general advice about your list of "features" a perfect self-sufficient place should have and where I think the location in the world best fits this description; however, ultimately even if you have no experience at all in self-sufficiency, you'll still know better than me about what suits you. In other words, IMHO no one can tell you where the best place would be for you to set-up your own self-sufficient property and lifestyle.

Self sufficiency excites me 24/7, and I could talk till the cows come home about what my perceived best self-sufficient places would be but I don't think that would be fair to say one region is better than another. That's for you to decide based on your own personal circumstances, which does come down to: money; family; personal health; experience; perception of self-sufficiency; extent of self-sufficiency; and many other motivating factors within and out of your control.

Having said all that, I'm going to have a go at answering your thread because it's very interesting and I'm sure we can all learn from discussing it. Firstly, you say you're looking for a country to become self-sufficient but you're unsure which one to choose? What's wrong with your own country? I'd definitely start my search there first before considering moving countries - for obvious reasons. I believe there are few countries in the world where a self-sufficient lifestyle couldn't be achieved (mainly talking 1st World here).

Here's my attempt to answer your other criteria:

All climates have there plus and minuses but I would say it's easier to live a self-sufficient type lifestyle in a non-extreme climate. Places that are too hot or too cold with too much or too little rainfall, are tough places to live so somewhere around the middle like a temperate or sub-tropical climates might be better but some may disagree - please do

Find a property with perfect well draining crumbly volcanic soil with lots of organic matter which holds moisture then that's great! I live on heavy clay soil, so I just have to work harder to improve my earth before planting and growing or keeping animals.

You should be able to find a property on the fringes or outside of the cities with a clean water source - I'd be surprised if you can't. Drilling or buying a property with a bore (underground water) is always handy. So to, is living near a lake or river.

I'm not sure if you mean animals already on the land or a property best suited for animals; however, most poultry and domestic livestock do best with a grassed landscape for free ranging so that's what I would look for. This largely depends on your skills but assuming you have the skills to build your own home with wood from your property, then I would expect you'd need to buy farmland (rather then fringe acreage) and ensure the property has sufficient trees to meet your needs without damaging the environment. Plus, depending on where your live tree felling might be subject to approval.

This can be pretty subjective limited rules and goverment (I want to live off the grid without have to worry about rules about building you own house or rules about having animals or having to pay taxes and so on..)

Living off-grid can be done easy enough with solar and so can building your own home but living like "Grizzly Adams" is probably a little unrealistic. I have seen and visited people living like this in remote areas of Northern Australia when I worked for a liaison team in the military years ago - they are basically squatting on state land - but I wouldn't recommend it.

Cheap price for land Usually, the further out from the city you go in any economy the cheaper the price gets - it depends on how far away you are prepared to live from the urban centres.

I'd say, to find the "perfect self-sufficient property" in a first world country with hardly any restrictions at all from authorities would be quite a hard task - it's nice to dream though...

At the end of the day other people who read this thread may answer with their own helpful views and opinion (probably differing from mine). Some may name or have an exact place which they believe offers all those points you request but I hope I've helped a little... Personally, I love South East Queensland, Australia

 

[DAN]

What's wrong with your own country?

My own country Denmark doesn't follow my needs in these things:
- Good clima - I like hot weather and lots of sun and summer, and also the plants and animals will be better.
- Wood for building a house - there is not tons of wood but there is some that is not so cheap
- beautiful landscape - it's all flat and fields in Denmark, there is no mountains, waterfalls, and so on..
- limited rules and goverment - there are too many rules about everything in Denmark.. you can't for example build your own log cabin because there are rules like that it's have to be well isolated and so on (but for example in Norway there is log cabins everywhere and it's much colder there)
- cheap price for land - land in Denmark can cost around 3 times more than for example in Portugal, and everything in general is expensive and have lots of taxes and so on..

Animals - I'm not sure if you mean animals already on the land or a property best suited for animals; however, most poultry and domestic livestock do best with a grassed landscape for free ranging so that's what I would look for.

I mean both, but most important is that it's suited for animals.

- Wood for building a house - This largely depends on your skills but assuming you have the skills to build your own home with wood from your property, then I would expect you'd need to buy farmland (rather then fringe acreage) and ensure the property has sufficient trees to meet your needs without damaging the environment. Plus, depending on where your live tree felling might be subject to approval.

I am a fast learner so about the skills I can adapt for what's needed in the different places.
What is the difference on a farmland and a fringe acreage? sorry but my english is not the best and I simple don't know what is a fringe acreage
If there is not enough trees on my ground or I am not allowed to cut them is okay if just they are easy and cheap to get in the place.

- limited rules and goverment (I want to live off the grid without have to worry about rules about building you own house or rules about having animals or having to pay taxes and so on..)Living off-grid can be done easy enough with solar and so can building your own home but living like "Grizzly Adams" is probably a little unrealistic. I have seen and visited people living like this in remote areas of Northern Australia when I worked for a liaison team in the military years ago - they are basically squatting on state land - but I wouldn't recommend it.

I don't know the word "squatting" but I think it means that you live there illegally right?
what would happened if they find out that you live there illegally? not just in Australia but in general
is there somewhere where you can live without that they can find out that you are there? or at least somewhere where it's almost for free and you can live by yourself?
for example like Dick Proenneke in "alone in the wilderness" where he goes to live in Alaskas wildness... he probably live there for free and just need a permission you dont think?

- cheap price for land - Usually, the further out from the city you go in any economy the cheaper the price gets - it depends on how far away you are prepared to live from the urban centres.- etc.

I am prepared to go as far away as possible if it means that it's cheap..

I'd say, to find the "perfect self-sufficient property" in a first world country with hardly any restrictions at all from authorities would be quite a hard task - it's nice to dream though...

At the end of the day other people who read this thread may answer with their own helpful views and opinion (probably differing from mine). Some may name or have an exact place which they believe offers all those points you request but I hope I've helped a little... Personally, I love South East Queensland, Australia

Is there some places that you can suggest me to look closer on and that you think would be good for my needs that I have described if it can be anywhere in the world?

and do you have a country that is near Italy (my girlfriend wants to live near her homecountry) that you expecially can suggest?

thanks for the answers hope you can help me further..

 

[Mark]

My own country Denmark doesn't follow my needs in these things:
- Good clima - I like hot weather and lots of sun and summer, and also the plants and animals will be better.
- Wood for building a house - there is not tons of wood but there is some that is not so cheap
- beautiful landscape - it's all flat and fields in Denmark, there is no mountains, waterfalls, and so on..
- limited rules and goverment - there are too many rules about everything in Denmark.. you can't for example build your own log cabin because there are rules like that it's have to be well isolated and so on (but for example in Norway there is log cabins everywhere and it's much colder there)
- cheap price for land - land in Denmark can cost around 3 times more than for example in Portugal, and everything in general is expensive and have lots of taxes and so on..

That's a shame Denmark is so restrictive! Honestly, I don't know Europe well enough to advise on a country with the traits you're after I'm sorry.


I mean both, but most important is that it's suited for animals.

Well, you can grow/keep animals just about in any setting as long as the animals welfare is cared for. The type of land you've indicated above should be appropriate for animals.

I am a fast learner so about the skills I can adapt for what's needed in the different places.
What is the difference on a farmland and a fringe acreage? sorry but my english is not the best and I simple don't know what is a fringe acreage
If there is not enough trees on my ground or I am not allowed to cut them is okay if just they are easy and cheap to get in the place.

Farmland is country living away from easy reach of city life and fringe acreage is typically farmland close to the city which has been subdivided into smaller blocks 1 - 5 acres. As far as using trees for building, in Australia for instance, you mostly need to get local government approval to cut down any large established trees on a property.


something like this for me is beautiful landscape:
https://www.google.dk/url?sa=i&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=images&cd=&cad=rja&docid=k4IJ6x9JeZX9tM&tbnid=py_HXvIlS_rYrM:&ved=0CAUQjRw&url=http%3A%2F%2Fandreaandrade.deviantart.com%2Fart%2FHeavens-Farm-92709433&ei=NgBSUaGUMeuL4gTNrICIDA&bvm=bv.44342787,d.bGE&psig=AFQjCNFWqj9o7x-pe8M4orWY-MuC6wafEw&ust=1364414886926763

Yes, looks nice.

I don't know the word "squatting" but I think it means that you live there illegally right?
what would happened if they find out that you live there illegally? not just in Australia but in general
is there somewhere where you can live without that they can find out that you are there? or at least somewhere where it's almost for free and you can live by yourself?
for example like Dick Proenneke in "alone in the wilderness" where he goes to live in Alaskas wildness... he probably live there for free and just need a permission you dont think?

You're certainly intent on investigating the plausibility of living away from civilization LOL. Yes, squatting is generally living somewhere illegally and it sometimes can pay off for certain motivated individuals - I've seen it myself but I wouldn't recommend squatting on crown land or private land.



I am prepared to go as far away as possible if it means that it's cheap..

There are plenty of "cheap" places to setup a self-sufficient homestead around the world but most are too dangerous - I'm thinking some parts of Africa and Asia.



Is there some places that you can suggest me to look closer on and that you think would be good for my needs that I have described if it can be anywhere in the world?

and do you have a country that is near Italy (my girlfriend wants to live near her homecountry) that you expecially can suggest?

thanks for the answers hope you can help me further..

Like I wrote earlier I can't advise you about that personally but hopefully someone else will see this thread and have a better answer for you.

 

[DAN]

Like I wrote earlier I can't advise you about that personally but hopefully someone else will see this thread and have a better answer for you.

okay thank you for the help so far

 

[Mark]

Just reflecting more on this conversation it seems Dan has moved on but for anyone else reading about self sufficiency is a good start but often resources on this subject are not very concentrated (it's one of the reasons I started blogging about it) but if you are looking for books on self-sufficiency Booktopia has a almost 100 directly on self-sufficiency so check them out. If you like get an dread any of them, it would be great if you came back here and told us about your experience.

 

[stevo]

Mark probably covered all this.... but it's an interesting idea, probably something we'd all love to do but may be impossible to satisfy all the things on that list. One of the biggest issues might be government rules? You'd have to go pretty far away from a city to find land that was cheap and with limited rules, so that might make the whole task quite an expensive one because of set up costs, you'd have to transport all your gear to the location, carry batteries and solar panels on your back across mountains because there's no roads?. Wouldn't it be great to just walk off in to the bush/forest/woods and claim some land and build yourself a house. Maybe 100 years ago it would have been possible but I don't think you could do it now. I love to do this too, but i'd still want shops and internet

 

[DAN]

Mark probably covered all this.... but it's an interesting idea, probably something we'd all love to do but may be impossible to satisfy all the things on that list. One of the biggest issues might be government rules? You'd have to go pretty far away from a city to find land that was cheap and with limited rules, so that might make the whole task quite an expensive one because of set up costs, you'd have to transport all your gear to the location, carry batteries and solar panels on your back across mountains because there's no roads?. Wouldn't it be great to just walk off in to the bush/forest/woods and claim some land and build yourself a house. Maybe 100 years ago it would have been possible but I don't think you could do it now. I love to do this too, but i'd still want shops and internet

maeby you are right.. i dont think its impossible, but yes it would have been more easy in the past. But I think my new plan is to save up some money and buy a piece of land in Italy with my girlfriend (she is Italian), and build a cob house or something cheap and strange..

I am in a agricultural school now in denmark (did I mention that I'm Danish?), and I have to find a place to go for internship for complete my education and most off all earn some money to save up for my future farm..
the problem is that I have a bit of dificulties to be an employer here.. i dont feel like I fit in to the dannish working system.. I want to do things on my own, even if that means earning almost nothing and working my ass off.. I cant do a normal internship here in denmark, I need to go somewhere where I can learn about being selfsuficient, or at least a place where they have different kinds of animals and vegetables and not just 100 cows and nothing else.. I dont want to use 2 years learning how to take care of cows..

you have any ideas how to earn money and get experience and knowledge about selfsuficient stuff?

that's my two requirements: money and experience..
it dosnt matter if I get my graduation and all that sh#t, becouse I will not need a stack off paper of a good CV for become selfsuficent.

 

[Mark]

you have any ideas how to earn money and get experience and knowledge about selfsuficient stuff?

You can learn a lot online, and in books for a start - chatting on this forum about self-sufficiency with others who are interested is also valuable if I do say so...

I really like your attitude about wanting to dive into self-sufficiency head first but it's a little hard to do that in a modern world. Many people dream about buying their own patch of dirt and living a self-sufficient life but for most of them it takes years of working 9 to 5 and living in suburbia before they can "afford" to live on barely nothing off their own property.

There are several people already on this forum who have purchased and are working their dream self-sufficient property but I would say all of them had to build funds from somewhere else before buying their land and then living the lifestyle they always wanted.

Once they get to the stage of producing and selling their own gourmet products (and lots of people are doing this in Australia) then they can also bring in a tidy income to support their lifestyle. That is, living they way they like, doing a "job" they love, and getting paid for it - everyones dream...

Perhaps if you could somehow afford to buy a small established hobby farm which is already bringing in some money you could then expand your self-sufficient knowledge from there, try other disciplines and teach yourself on the job whilst still earning some cash. On the side, you could document your achievements through your blog or You Tube etc and earn a little from that also.

There are many ways to approach self-sufficiency it's just a matter of working towards the goal and slowly gaining the knowledge and experience to have the skills to become more self-sufficient - plus having the funds (or getting a loan) to start your own plot helps.

I think growing with your own property (whatever the size) is the best way to learn about self-sufficiency and when a problem arises you can't figure out then do some reading or turn to the net (or SSC) to solve it. Over time you'll become a self-sufficient guru

 

[DAN]

You can learn a lot online, and in books for a start - chatting on this forum about self-sufficiency with others who are interested is also valuable if I do say so...

I really like your attitude about wanting to dive into self-sufficiency head first but it's a little hard to do that in a modern world. Many people dream about buying their own patch of dirt and living a self-sufficient life but for most of them it takes years of working 9 to 5 and living in suburbia before they can "afford" to live on barely nothing off their own property.

There are several people already on this forum who have purchased and are working their dream self-sufficient property but I would say all of them had to build funds from somewhere else before buying their land and then living the lifestyle they always wanted.

Once they get to the stage of producing and selling their own gourmet products (and lots of people are doing this in Australia) then they can also bring in a tidy income to support their lifestyle. That is, living they way they like, doing a "job" they love, and getting paid for it - everyones dream...

Perhaps if you could somehow afford to buy a small established hobby farm which is already bringing in some money you could then expand your self-sufficient knowledge from there, try other disciplines and teach yourself on the job whilst still earning some cash. On the side, you could document your achievements through your blog or You Tube etc and earn a little from that also.

There are many ways to approach self-sufficiency it's just a matter of working towards the goal and slowly gaining the knowledge and experience to have the skills to become more self-sufficient - plus having the funds (or getting a loan) to start your own plot helps.

I think growing with your own property (whatever the size) is the best way to learn about self-sufficiency and when a problem arises you can't figure out then do some reading or turn to the net (or SSC) to solve it. Over time you'll become a self-sufficient guru

I like your ideas, and its a part of the plan also... when I have my own piece of land, I can start creating everything that i always wanted..
but without the piece of land I just feel hopeless, becouse I cant really do anything for start it else than read lots of books and take care of the garden..

For do things like start creating buildings and tools, and have large fields with vegetables and have animals will all require a place to do it, and the same for start doing curses and learn other people about selfsufficiency.. all that I cant really do before I have the land, and can try all what i read with my own hands..

I have to cross that line from living in apartment and studying, and reading about selfsufficy, to actualy have a pice of land where I can acomplish something..

But i will need at least 35.000 dollars for find something usefull...
It will take several years to earn that much, and as I said, Its not easy for me to work for others and do things that are meaningless for me, and then for so long..
if you have any ideas how to accomplish this in other ways please tell me

 

[Mark]

I like your ideas, and its a part of the plan also... when I have my own piece of land, I can start creating everything that i always wanted..
but without the piece of land I just feel hopeless, becouse I cant really do anything for start it else than read lots of books and take care of the garden..

For do things like start creating buildings and tools, and have large fields with vegetables and have animals will all require a place to do it, and the same for start doing curses and learn other people about selfsufficiency.. all that I cant really do before I have the land, and can try all what i read with my own hands..

I have to cross that line from living in apartment and studying, and reading about selfsufficy, to actualy have a pice of land where I can acomplish something..

But i will need at least 35.000 dollars for find something usefull...
It will take several years to earn that much, and as I said, Its not easy for me to work for others and do things that are meaningless for me, and then for so long..
if you have any ideas how to accomplish this in other ways please tell me

It took me 21 years of military service to finally be in a position where I could buy a small acreage to practise self-sufficiency if I had won lotto I would not have spent that long in the Army I can tell you ... and, I would have bought a farm not a small acreage lol.

Anyway, my service taught me lots of valuable skills like fencing (erecting barbed wire), building, survival skills, digging, communication, improvising, and how to deal with a hard days work. All these skills help me now on my property so what I'm saying is although you may think working for someone else is "meaningless" it may be the only way you eventually reach your goals.

Hopefully, you'll reach your goals faster than I did but in the meantime perhaps you could work in the agricultural industry (after you've finished studying) and learn some farming skills, this could also give you an incite into where you may eventually like to settle and buy your own property one day. Gaining all this knowledge now by working for someone else on their property may save you from making big errors if you rushed into buying your own property. Think of it as training by using someone elses land and resources so that when you get your own you'll be 100% and ready to go.

Just my thoughts - hope it helps you with your decision.

 

[Tom]

Hi Dan, maybe check out Bulgaria:
- You're from the EU so dont have to worry much about visas and residency, etc. Can own property and land.
- Great climate for growing. Almost 300 days of sun per year.
- Good for solar power
- Not overpopulated. Lots of forests and wilderness still.
- Im guessing its a more laid back place in terms of bureaucracy.
- Lots of mountains and fresh water for you
- And best of all property is really really cheap! You can even get houses on ebay for a few thousand euro with say 1/2 acre land.

Other than that Italy is a good bet but a bit more expensive and prob more rules.
Same goes for croatia.
Albania/Macaedonia might be a bit cheaper but not in EU so not as straight forward with visa/residency.
Armenia and Caucasus cheap but bit cold in the winters.
Maybe Greece? But I get the impression the climate is a bit dry, barren soil, more expensive, and only just across the border from Bulgaria!

If over 50 can get retirement visa for thailand and buy property, is also cheap and good climate...

The main issue really is residency. Sure you can buy a farm or get someone to buy a farm for you in most countries, but no country will let you stay indefinitely on a tourist visa. And if you are living a self sufficient life you are not going to have a company to sponsor you to get a work visa and renew it every X months/year. Or if you do one day the rules might change and you might have to leave your home if you have no right for residency. Its a real issue. So unless you are retirement age, or get married to a national of the country, or spend a lot of money for residency on a tax haven, your best bet might be Eastern Europe or Italy. Hope that helps.

 

[David Trees]

I hear you Dan... I understand the frustration of not feeling like you can do what your heart is crying out to do. I'm an Aussie who lives in north east Manchester who wants to sell up and move home. We have been trying to sell for almost a year and decided two years ago to do it. It's hard bud, I know...

I also agree 100% with Mark and others who have commented about being willing to go through a process, even if it isn't perfect or ideal, in order to live your dream in the days ahead. From my experience, the delay is like waiting for harvest. It's worth while waiting for the right time to harvest and the satisfaction and reward is awesome when it comes too. I think Italy would have plenty of legislation too. For me Germany and Austria have great land and "Bio" Ideals in many communities. But they are expensive too.

I hear what my fellow Mancunian, Tom, has said about eastern Euro countries. I know they seem great and for the right people are great. But, as a person who had invested in property in the mid 2000's that property, some of these countries can seem to be cheap and not as legislative. Just be aware... it's cheap for a reason and you would do well to do some really thorough due diligence before investing one Krona or Euro into Bulgaria or Romania. Those places are truly beautiful but the mindsets are still very ... Mmm let me say feudal and sometimes corrupt. I have friends who live in both.

The other thing I noticed recently is that there is a Permaculture School in Sweden that has been getting some great reviews from the Permaculture community. They do internships too. I know nothing of the detail but I do know it's not that far from your homeland. I've been to Herning twice too Nice!

 

[Jennie]

I have a dream of living in the countryside somewhere with good clima where I can live self sufficient, but i dont know in which country I have to search.


I am looking for:
- Good clima
- Good earth
- Clean water (river, lake or underground water
- Animals
- Wood for building a house
- beautiful landscape
- limited rules and goverment (I want to live off the grid without have to worry about rules about building you own house or rules about having animals or having to pay taxes and so on..)
- cheap price for land
- etc.

Any ideas of a perfect place for me to search this (or at least some off the things)?

I am unsure about other countries but in Australia there are communities that work in harmony on common land. If you google 'intentional communities' there are many out there. Or you can start your own! You just need some like minded people then share in the cost of purchasing the perfect property!
Research research research......... it took us 5 and a half years to find our property! But we were lucky enough to be able to afford a 7 acre property by ourselves.
I am a firm believer that all things happen for a reason!

 

[David Trees]

I am unsure about other countries but in Australia there are communities that work in harmony on common land. If you google 'intentional communities' there are many out there. Or you can start your own! You just need some like minded people then share in the cost of purchasing the perfect property!
Research research research......... it took us 5 and a half years to find our property! But we were lucky enough to be able to afford a 7 acre property by ourselves.
I am a firm believer that all things happen for a reason!

Thanks for that Jennie. We are coming home to Oz to start our journey soon. You words inspire and encourage.
It's been for us about focus on the goal and let time do it's work... Just like in a garden hey. "Seasons and Times"
I also believe strongly in Providence.

 

[sun fish]

Very nicely located land of 17.3 acres at 15 min from the beaches of Vera (Almeria - Spain), prepared and ideal for self-sufficient living

This plot of 70.000m2 is very special. The entire property is fenced and is situated in a valley between hills microclimate slects 15 minutes from the beach. There are two large automatic gates giving access to the property is easily accessible from the public road. It has its own water source registered.

The land is fully planted and contains a thousand trees including a beautiful olive tree of 800 years old, pine trees, ficus and around 800 fruit trees divided into several orchards: orange, apple, pear, olive, plum, fig, lemon, mandarin, peach ... Over the entire 17.3 acres is an automated irrigation system in place that is divided into sectors. Each sector is also equipped with fire extinguisher connections. Besides the beautiful orchards, there is also an area for the cultivation of vegetables.

The water from the source is collected and diverted to a storage tank that is in communication with a series of purification tanks so that the metal and the lime is filtered out of the water in a natural way. This water is used in the built sector. It consists of an open design kitchen/bar with wood oven and barbecue, a separate and closed fully equipped kitchen, a garage, a bathroom with shower and a storage room. There is a separate structure built as a dog retreat.

Dogs are not the only wildlife on this terrain that has really everything in place to lead a self-sufficient life. There are also partridges, chickens, geese and rabbits.

The electricity is supplied by generators on site. If you really are interested to live a self-sufficient life, it would be ideal to install solar panels here with generators or for those who dread the noise of a generator, with a storage room full of batteries. After all, you are in the part of Spain that has the highest number of sunny days per year (about 310 on average).

There is a planning permission for an "agricultural shed" of 400m2 with additional space for a pool. The building of which is at a preliminary stage: the area for the construction has been paved and around it palm trees were already planted.

This is truly a magnificent property for sustainable living.

 

[Mark]

So this does sound like a real estate advertisement for a nice self-sufficient lifestyle block feel free to elaborate on how a person can find out more details - do they contact you via a private message for example?

 

[sun fish]

Thank you for your reply Mark! If anyone is interested, they can indeed contact me in a private message.

 

[Mark]

No worries Sun Fish

 

[stevo]

Is there any photos of the property you can post up?