New Land New Garden

Discussion in 'Fruit & Vegetable Growing' started by Daniel.Mav, Mar 11, 2017.

  1. Daniel.Mav

    Daniel.Mav Well-Known Member Premium Member GOLD

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    Hey folks, I am building on some new land out at green bank spring mountain and finding it difficult planning for my next garden. The block is 3600m2 at 40m x 90m with minimal slope to the left side. H1 type soil and the block is oriented to the north west.
    The house will be 10m from the front which gives me just under 63m out the back. The plan is to have lawn off the back of the house for 20m then a hedge across to screen off my garden. Behind the hedge will then be all mine to creat an orchard, vegetable garden, chicken/duck coop and a little food forest of bananas pawpaws and berries. Behind the hedge will be around 43m by 40m.

    Basically I need help figuring out where to put a large 15x15m vegetable garden with a 30- 40 tree orchard so I can get optimal growth from both. I've uploaded a photo of the block for reference.
    Exciting times ahead but daunting as well because I don't want to make a fatal mistake and have limited growth.
     

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  2. Skippyherron

    Skippyherron Well-Known Member Premium Member

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    How very exciting! So much land to work with!
    Great position of the house!
    I'd tend to put veggies closer to the house than away....just so I could pop out and grab stuff for cooking.

    Maybe along the western side of the block.....see if there are some sort of fruiting decicious plants. I'd even be game and put a few deciduous plants beside the house on the western side....just to block that hot summer sun on the west and keep house a bit cooler. (But that's just me and my dislike for hot summer burning sun)

    If I was going to get ducks and chooks....I'd let them run through the orchard at various times. Not all the time as the chickens would dig up your newly planted holes. Organise some sort of rotation through the orchard.....if possible. They offer great nutrient dispersal.

    Ducks could also be run through the veggie area to keep slugs down. Once seedlings are a bit bigger though....not fresh baby seedlings....they'd be a temptation to the ducks. Also, ducks won't dig and scratch up your veggies.

    I'd put a water tank off the coop on the chicken coop so you have water right at the spot for the ducks and chickens to drink and play in.....keeping ducks separate from chooks in close but separate pens.

    Think about catching and storing water around the property so you don't have to physically cart it or move it.

    Is there any way you can work with the land to create Swales that can slow down the water flow and trap it more so you don't loose it off your block down the left side?

    Just a few thoughts/ideas hope they help!
    Xx kel
     
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  3. Skippyherron

    Skippyherron Well-Known Member Premium Member

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    Also, have you made a decision on whether you will grow dwarf varieties in the orchard?
    Standard fruit trees will eventually require ladder to harvest....unless you keep them pruned well.

    If the veggies are on the eastern side of the block and orchard on the west....the trees will protect veggies in hot summer sun.

    If the eastern side of the block is higher.....some of the water/nutrient run off from the veggies could seep down to the orchard.....not heaps because we don't want to soak our veggies....but it's better than sharing with the next door block.

    Trying not to confuse with my rambling........Hope it helps somehow.
     
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  4. ClissAT

    ClissAT Valued Member Premium Member GOLD

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    Welcome to this friendly & informative forum, Daniel.

    As Skippy says, fruit trees on dwarf root stock are best if you want that many trees in that space. Espaliered trees or vines along the western house wall is a good idea for cooth in the summer & heat absorbsion in the winter.

    The productive garden needs to be as close as possible to the kitchen so the cook can dash out for herbs & veg as needed. Otherwise it can become a neglected area, being too far away & out of view behind that hedge.

    There is a way to rotate your garden beds & chooks & possibly ducks too ( I don't know much about duck management) so they get the residue of each bed in turn to graze, mulch & fertilize for you. Saves you a lot of work.

    If you are building a machinery type shed, be sure to put several large tanks on it for the garden, as municipal water will become horrendously expensive to use for watering the spring/summer garden & that much lawn.

    Be sure to include in your plans, a set of compost bays & a potting, tools & fertilizer storage shed that has rodent proof bins for poultry feed & fertilizer storage. Also make sure you can access it by vehicle or at least get a good sized trolley to it due to the weight of the fertilizer you will be moving.

    Any gentle slope facing any direction will work equally well unless the neighbouring land has large encroaching trees. To be on the safe side you can include a set of drains to prevent excess polluted run-off from poultry pens in torrential rain. Those drains can exit to the fruit trees.
     
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  5. OskarDoLittle

    OskarDoLittle Valued Member Premium Member GOLD

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    Hey Daniel.mav...well done you for taking the plunge and getting a bigger block!
    Now I know that a lotta folks find permaculture a bit weird, but I actually think a lot of the pricipals are very logical and sensible...and actually pretty much in keeping with what Skippy & Cliss have already mentioned. So it's worth googling some of that info at the planning stage - use what you think is relevant to you, and well...just ignore the rest! Like Skippy & ClissAT, I'd be inclined to keep the stuff you use regularly very close to the kitchen...herbs/spices and rapid turnover things like lettuce, tomato. I'm sure you'll have heaps of fun with it!
     
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  6. Mark

    Mark Founder Staff Member

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    Congratulations @Daniel.Mav

    Our block is similar. In our case, the land slopes downward and from right to left.

    We made the main orchard on the right along the higher ground for good drainage and placed the vegetable garden central to the backyard for easy access and plenty of sun.

    The chickens and other poultry are further down the back and this is how we like it away from the house in their own free-ranging area with a small dam for the ducks. Poultry attract snakes and rodents and can be noisy (especially with a rooster) so to have them away from the home was a good choice for us.
     
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  7. Helen Auriga

    Helen Auriga Ecological Farming & Landcare Premium Member GOLD

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    Ask yourself if you want the chooks to free range, if the answer is yes put them next to their free range areas and off the lawn.
    Catch as much water as possible off sheds.
    If you are going to be wheel barrowing compost around don't put the heap at the bottom of the hill (from experience it creates hard work). - same with firewoord.
     
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  8. ClissAT

    ClissAT Valued Member Premium Member GOLD

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    And for the health & sanity of neighbours too!! ;):noevil:
     
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  9. Sasha Bushell

    Sasha Bushell Well-Known Member Premium Member

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    My envy has set in.. cant wait to get some acres. (Currently in suburbia) mind you fitting alot into my block. Its just the sights and sounds i really miss and soo over the burnouts, dogs, loud music and other close proximity noises.

    I just want bird noises, wind and farm animals with the occasion loud sound of heavy rainfall; that is my bliss dream :) ♡♡♡♡
     
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  10. ClissAT

    ClissAT Valued Member Premium Member GOLD

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    For 10yrs I have enjoyed the peace & quiet (for the most part) that my small acreage rural res property has provided me with.
    However, recently a very large cut was made in the hillside across the low valley from the back of my property.
    It looked big enough for a decent sized house with shed.
    Then the beeping started!
    A humungous shed was built in the middle of the levelled cut.
    Now there is beeping as all times of day & night. Also many times more dust coming off my narrow dirt street from huge trucks.
    The shed is about 1000m away on the facing side of the hill so the slope directs the sound across the valley to me.
    I really hate beeping as much as I hate barking, howling dogs.
    For 5mths I have had a large barking howling dog (owned by the same neighbour who mows with his very loud industrial mower at 6pm on Sunday) now residing next to me.
    I also now have beeping at 2am & any other time of the day or night coming from the hillside behind me.
    Those are the types of noises that can't be screened out by plantings or fences & drive a person mental. :quiver:
     
  11. Sasha Bushell

    Sasha Bushell Well-Known Member Premium Member

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    Why is theres beeping coming from t h e shed? Perhaps check with the local council to see if theres anything that can be done?

    Perhaps business is running out of the shed when its not permitted?
     
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  12. Berkeloid

    Berkeloid Well-Known Member Premium Member

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    @ClissAT It's stories like that that scare me into wanting to aim for a HUGE property instead of just a few acres! Even a few hundred acres might not be enough to guarantee avoiding that kind of noise :-S I hope you are able to sort something out.
     
  13. Daniel.Mav

    Daniel.Mav Well-Known Member Premium Member GOLD

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    Wow thanks everyone for your thoughts and ideas. I've been busy working out all the details but good news is we will be starting the build i December so should be there this tine next year :) that's a long time to plan.

    I'd love the garden to be closer but alas my wife wants a lawn to stretch the backyward for 15m back and a hedge to block the 'farm' I am creating.
    I am planning on having a large herb/medicinal garden on the western side of the house close to the kitchen but the main garden will need to be 15m away :(.
    I do like the idea of mainly ducks which roam around the orchard and only half to a dozen of chickens. A goat and perhaps some quail. I'm also looking into aqua ponics for somw fish meat.
    I'll post pictures of potential plans soon.
     
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  14. Flatland

    Flatland Well-Known Member Premium Member

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    As you are going to have a lawn consider using washing machine water on the lawn. lawns are quite happy with soapy water & that saves tank water for veggies & fruit trees. We have a setup that works for us. Our laundry is setup so we can open the door & put a wheelie bin next to it. We have a small extension on the washing machine hose so that the machine pumps its water into the wheelie bin which has a tap in the bottom to attach a hose to to run water out onto the lawn. This way we have a nice green lawn in summer which otherwise would take a lot of water or be brown. Neither of those options are good. Another plus for us is we are on a septic system so it is good not to put washing machine water down it.
     
  15. Mark

    Mark Founder Staff Member

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    That's fine! 15 metres isn't that far... our patch is about 20 metres from the back of the house with grass in between (our cricket playing/football kicking area) :)
     
  16. Daniel.Mav

    Daniel.Mav Well-Known Member Premium Member GOLD

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    Fantastic thanks for confirming. Now the wife can be happy and I can have my garden still :). Yes we will have a septic tank but I was considering putting in it the front yard amongst the garden and use it to water the front yard. I thought that the washing machine was hooked up to the septic tank? If it isnt than I'll definitely use it for the back lawn
     
  17. Mark

    Mark Founder Staff Member

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    Ours is... But I guess some systems may have them separate but I don't know why that would be?
     
  18. Daniel.Mav

    Daniel.Mav Well-Known Member Premium Member GOLD

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    Here is an idea I had with the layout of the garden. You can see where I split the backyard so there's lawn for around 15-20m then a hedge which will seperate the 'farm' area. Any suggestions would be great. The land has a 1m slope spanning from top right corner to bottom left corner very gradual though. My latest though would be a herb/greens vegetable garden on the left side of the house. The chicken coop is on the left and shed on right but thinking about swapping positions. Food forest along the back to grow berries pawpaws bananas sweet potatoes ginger turmeric and all the messy trees. The other trees are all going to be fruit trees of all sorts. Would like to have ducks somewhere too and maybe a goat if room allows. Need help with the positioning
     

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  19. Daniel.Mav

    Daniel.Mav Well-Known Member Premium Member GOLD

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    Also, I'm not sure about the vegetable garden. My wife wants it to be a feature rather than an eye sore so I went with the fenced in with grape vine growing down the centre path. But now I'm thinking I should change the plan and go with a more simple idea wig will be cheaper and maybe have more permaculture ideas in it. I really want the chIckens to free range in the orchard and have ducks free range the veg patch with some sort of little pond for them but child proof because of my 1.5yr old girl. I'd love to harvest perch somehow but not really interested in aquaponics. Food forest would be great but I don't want it to take up the whole space. Also not sure about the flooring around all of this as there will be lawn for playing in the first 20m before the hedge but after that I'm not sure if I should bother laying lawn. Though it needs to be neat and tidy and not dusty or muddy.....so these are my problems and conficting thoughts... Basically I want a mini homestead where I can gather fruit veg and harvest some sort of meat.
     
  20. ClissAT

    ClissAT Valued Member Premium Member GOLD

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    Up this way we have Cyprus mulch which is not tasty to white ants.
    It is a very course product from inland Qld, made from offcuts & bark put through some sort of hammer mill.
    It looks better than pine bark & lasts much longer but does go grey after a time.
    I will be using it to cover the ground in a heavily shaded area near the front of my granny flat that my tenant wants to use as a sitting area.
    I was planning to use mulched up green tree waste which I could get for free, then remembered the white ants which would eat that in a year or so.
    I think it will stay put quite well & not get moves around by foot traffic.
    Maybe you could use something like that in your garden paths.
    The ducks wouldn't be able to push it around & their poo should go straight through.
     
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